tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post1500739699242337559..comments2023-10-28T11:12:02.164-04:00Comments on The Philosopher Mom: Abstinence and marriage: Que pasa?Erika Ahernhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11477804033751036631noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-77782047706624042282011-09-07T18:17:07.286-04:002011-09-07T18:17:07.286-04:00As a single dude, I don't got no advice to off...As a single dude, I don't got no advice to offer. I thought of Lois and Zelie, however, (No relation to your situation) while reading this post, about how he suggested that they live together as brother and sisters after Zelie freaked out on their honeymoon night when she realized that married life includes sex... then they end up having 9 children. <br /><br />I am not suggesting you live as brothers and sisters, but I do offer my prayers for healing and will ask the blessed parents of S. Therese to pray for you as well so you can raise more children for God and enjoy your married vocation. May God's love and peace fill you both on this eve of the birth of our Blessed Mother.<br /><br />Peace!<br />Joe P.Joe P.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-88696086132182000352011-09-07T13:51:08.794-04:002011-09-07T13:51:08.794-04:00This is very close to my heart right now because m...This is very close to my heart right now because my husband and I just finished a period of abstinence that lasted through almost my entire first trimester of pregnancy.<br /><br />This was our third serious period of abstinence this year. We celebrated our one year anniversary in January with 6 weeks of abstinence to recover from an early miscarriage (my fertility recovered in half that time). Talk about a time when you're just not interested in offering anything else up. <br /><br />Then I had a minor pelvic surgery that required about 3 weeks of abstinence at the beginning of summer. And then pregnancy. <br /><br />Who knew there was so much abstinence in marriage! :) <br /><br />We both admit that pregnancy abstinence was easier (not easy) - probably because I wasn't fertile. But the other times were REALLY challenging. <br /><br />How do we deal? I think the most important thing is that we try really hard not to shut ourselves off to each other (i.e. throwing ourselves into individual hobbies to distract ourselves). <br /><br />We take time every day to pray the rosary and talk about how we're doing. In the case of our 3 week abstinence - a time we were both healthy and emotionally stable-ish - we offered it up for an end to abortion (my husband's idea). <br /><br />We laugh about it. We spend more time cuddling. We take on projects together. We read together. <br /><br />But mostly, we just let it be difficult. <br /><br />I cry. He gets frustrated. I offer my "other" daily sufferings for grace to help my husband through. And - without fail - we always come out more gentle, more patient, less self-focused, more other-focused. And we appreciate the times we don't have to abstain SO much more. <br /><br />God is making us into saints and THAT is beautiful. That is life-giving.Aprilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08001971502129496001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-92036273552246498962011-09-07T00:53:20.638-04:002011-09-07T00:53:20.638-04:00Well, thanks to extreme financial circumstances, w...Well, thanks to extreme financial circumstances, we're now in our 3rd. month of "abstinence". We've already got a large family and have been married nearly two decades. This is the first time we've made this decision. I'll be blunt: we start out "snuggling" and end up very frustrated, often tempted to do things not morally acceptable, and conversely, happy to have had some kind of romantic contact at all. It is very difficult for me, especially when we're near each other. I believe it all comes down to pure love. I like what MK said - "do I want it to be like this forever, not really, but Trusting God's plan helps me keep Him front and center." and finally, love of God is the highest love there is. Although I do fail and flounder at times, I continue to hope that something greater will be accomplished through all of this.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-69661538352850631362011-09-06T23:47:36.898-04:002011-09-06T23:47:36.898-04:00Sorry, it wouldn't all fit in one post...
No...Sorry, it wouldn't all fit in one post... <br /><br />None of this, I should say, in any way doubts or calls into question the perpetual virginity of Mary. The point is that if Mary “belongs” to Joseph, then her virginity is HIS GIFT TO HER – and by extension to the Church. It is a truly human gift of himself – including the bodily dimension of that gift. Mary’s virginity is not something she demands from Joseph prior to the marriage, but is (must be it seems to me) a gift to her from this “most chaste spouse”. A profoundly surprising and deeply moving gift! How deeply she must have pondered and rejoiced in the goodness of this man’s love for her – a love that allowed her to be fruitful – even bodily, in a most extraordinary way! There is a reason why St. Joseph is called the patron and guardian of the Church. How beautifully he cherished and nurtured that gift that Mary placed into his hands! <br /><br />So to answer the question of this post, chastity, or periodic or even prolonged countenance in marriage does not threaten, but rather adjust the quality or “shape” of that bodily gift that spouses are at all times called to. The marriage of Joseph and Mary is not an “exception” to the rule, but is the model of an authentic marriage. What it shows is the ability of grace to overcome an objectively sinful or “broken” situation and make it the very content of our reception of divine life! “Oh death (oh “grave reason”) where is your sting?!?” Mary was without sin, but her life was not without suffering!! It is the willingness to suffer for the sake of the other that does not do away with the suffering but makes it a joy and opportunity for rejoicing. <br /><br />I’m not sure if that is entirely clear or as articulate as I would have liked, but I hope it is helpful and a start to a conversation. I’m sure much more would need to be said. In any case I think this “problem” can only be solved by such a deepening of our sense of what marriage really entails. I think your blog entries move in this direction and I am very grateful for them! <br /><br />Thank you so much for your work! Please pray for me.<br />ChrisChrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-64974997697265143842011-09-06T23:45:59.575-04:002011-09-06T23:45:59.575-04:00I've been an occasional reader of your delight...I've been an occasional reader of your delightful and insightful blog and this issue in particular is one that I have been pondering recently. I usually don’t post responses to things I read in blogs but I think this merits an exception… I hope you don't mind a slightly more masculine perspective? <br /><br />I think we must look to the holy family here. And we must try to understand that the relationship between Joseph and Mary is a REAL marriage - with everything that marriage means from the perspective of the Church. Here's what I mean. <br /><br />It seems to me that a Christian understanding of Consecrated Virginity (as in the vows taken in religious life) is a fully human response to the gift of God’s life in Christ which was poured out for us on the Cross. It is a fully human response which therefore includes in a very deep sense a bodily dimension, just as Christ’s gift of divine life was a bodily gift. So Consecrated Virginity is not really best understood as a perpetual abstinence, but as a bodily gift – not unlike what occurs in marriage. <br /><br />The important point here is that Consecrated Virginity doesn’t make much sense without the Incarnation and Cross. Christ loves us first – in a definitively bodily way – which makes possible the kind of bodily response that Consecrated Virginity entails. For Mary then, it seems to me, it would be anachronistic to assume that she had in mind the kind of virginity that is made possible by the Incarnation and the Cross – the mystery of which had to be revealed to her over time and the course of her life. She could not have known before hand that her Fiat would lead her to the foot of the Cross – though when she was there she became fully aware of the significance of that “yes”. <br /><br />So when Mary marries Joseph, there could be not “proviso” that this would be a “celibate” marriage. “Celibacy” means a state of not being married, and you can’t be a not married married person. Marriage cannot tolerate such provisos. Mary must entrust her self – yes even the bodily dimensions of her self – to Joseph fully and freely with everything that that means. For her personally, though she was without sin, what that means must have been a deep mystery for her. As the immaculate, she must have felt a profound desire to belong to God completely and at the same time she must have had some sense that this desire must be somehow fulfilled in this marriage to Joseph, but exactly how that could all possibly work would have been an impossibly deep mystery for her. In other words, her vocation must have been as “dark” to her as it is to us – and very likely, given her unwillingness to indulge in any sinful or selfish shortcuts to relieve the tension of the drama of her relationship with God, very much darker. <br /><br />Mary is already married to Joseph when Gabriel appears at the Annunciation. She had already “given herself away” by an indissoluble, truly spousal, vow. As the Angel says to Joseph in the dream, “Do not be afraid to take Mary, YOUR WIFE (not “as your wife”!) into your home.” The angel declares the validity of the marital bond between them as he reveals to Joseph his role in salvation history! Indeed, if everything the Church is currently teaching us in the realm of bioethics about the necessity of the child’s conception within the context of marriage is true, that the child MUST be the fruit of marriage and in any circumstance where he or she is not does violence at the most radical level to the dignity of the child and his origins in human love and the sincere gift of self of spouses, then the conception of Christ in the womb of Mary cannot occur outside of marriage either. The full integrity of the Incarnation, it seems to me, would be at stake! The “fullness of time” must include the circumstance of the marriage of Joseph and Mary it seems to me. It is significant that the Angel does not appear before this event. (continued...)Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-18976569690068954492011-09-06T21:38:31.109-04:002011-09-06T21:38:31.109-04:00Erika— At the heart of the difficulty you now face...Erika— At the heart of the difficulty you now face is sacrifice. I agree that being told to offer it up for the poor souls is cold comfort.<br /><br />Let me offer you some warm comfort. All vocations: marriage, priesthood / religious life, and the single life all are built on sacrifice-- no ifs ands or buts about it. That sacrifice comes in a variety of forms— you are living one of them right now.<br /><br />The first vocation that all have is the single life— and ultimately, the single vocation is a vocation of charity. The single man is called to give of himself in charity to others— and to live a life of pre-marital chastity. I should add that chastity is not merely the absence of sexual activity— but rather is the presence of the virtue of purity. From the living of charity and purity spring humility. Humility brings with it a kind of holy detachment that makes it possible for one to have a healthy detachment from the things of this world— including the sharing of the marital act. I mention this because the single person and the religious are both called to live chastity for many years. What makes it possible for them is fidelity to the spiritual life and the life of prayer. What is four weeks in comparison?<br /><br />I think there's a larger issue with a lot of couples struggling with that issue— and I think it has everything to do with the fact that one or bother parties never received the spiritual formation necessary to cope with celibacy.<br /><br />My recommendations to you aren't rocket science— daily Mass, weekly confession, weekly adoration, weekly fasting. Fasting, in particular is key to taming one's desire to engage in the marital act.<br /><br />I know that this sacrifice isn't easy— but it's part of what the marital vocation calls on you to do— but in a marriage— every step of the way is paved by sacrifice— going to school to earn a living— living below one's means in the beginning— giving up "nice things" to get your kids through school, etc.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-40186144935739526972011-09-06T20:44:42.546-04:002011-09-06T20:44:42.546-04:00After the unexpected birth of my second child (he ...After the unexpected birth of my second child (he is a tremendous gift!), I knew I just couldn't have another one anytime soon. Because he was unexpected, I felt like I couldn't trust NFP at all. We abstained for 9 months until I felt like if I did get pregnant again, at least I had some hope of coping. Due to serious reasons, we have never pursued having another child, although always realize God could decide that we do need one and send one our way. We use a very conservative NFP method and have often gone long periods of time. We look forward to the times we can be together. Ideal? No. Difficult? Yes. Doable? Yes. It also adds a certain excitement when we can be together because it isn't an everyday sort of thing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-81138897682389525282011-09-06T18:51:17.791-04:002011-09-06T18:51:17.791-04:00So I was thinking that maybe we should next plant ...So I was thinking that maybe we should next plant a few fig trees in the orchard. OH and just realized that we did just start one this spring.(per St. Joseph) Also was thinking how much harder is seems to be for those of us who have to abstain from intercourse with a person whom we so deeply love and have passion for. (As a religious sister or priest I don't know how they feel but there may not be "that special someone" or they just don't allow there to be) I don't mean to lessen this sacrafice. I'm only thinking that there are lots of religious saints and sometimes we lay people can feel like lesser saints. But in this we have an opportunity for greatness. I would really like to hear from the saintly husbands. <br />JenJennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-42894324165400923742011-09-06T16:11:54.909-04:002011-09-06T16:11:54.909-04:00Yes, count us among those who frequently abstain a...Yes, count us among those who frequently abstain at least 3 weeks in a row. Several times a year I will have a cycle 60-90 days long which can result in a 6-8 weeks of abstinence at least.<br /><br />It's not very fun.But attaining virtue and living sacrificially isn't always fun. It is lonely, but we make the best use of the time.<br /><br />I should say that I have also sought ought help from a Creighton instructor to try to identify more days that could be classified as infertile. That has helped some.<br /><br />I know how hard it is to have long and irregular cycles. Some days it sucks, but it is always worth it.<br /><br />I would encourage anyone looking for support to check out a forum I helped found to support Catholic NFP users in all stages. It's www.livingthesacrament.com<br /><br />Prayers for you and your husband today!<br /><br />- Larissa H.Laceyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11586390647639382147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-17433719728355630832011-09-06T15:38:08.338-04:002011-09-06T15:38:08.338-04:00Thank you so much, Erika! Your words speak to my ...Thank you so much, Erika! Your words speak to my own marriage. I have been on needed medication for 1.5 years in which it would be unsafe for us to get pregnant at this time. I am trying so hard to get off this medicine, but it just don't isn't happening yet. My husband and I are definitely not loving lNFP these days. Abstinence for 3 or so weeks is not unusual for us. When you are dealing with meds that might cause deformities in your unborn child you just can't be too careful :/. But we are hanging in there knowing that marriage is MUCH more than sex, but it is very challenging at times. And we have grown closer to each other in different ways during this time. I once heard a wise priest say that whether you are in the vocation of marriage or consecrated life, we are all called to take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. They just take a different form, depending on the vocation. And somehow, within these vows is the "school of love" as love has the inner form of a vow (thank you Von Balthasar!) That is, a complete emptying of oneself and gift of oneself. But obviously, it never looks quite like we expect it too. Which is why it stinks (or appears too!). So, here's to chastity and that beautiful "yes" I said to my husband. The "yes" to the unknown and the "yes" in good times, bad times, in sickness and in health. And the "yes" to poverty, chastity, and obedience in marriage! May the graces keep coming!Kathrynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13538597995197637353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-83749176417658259282011-09-06T15:34:32.215-04:002011-09-06T15:34:32.215-04:00Thank you so much, Erika! Your words speak to my ...Thank you so much, Erika! Your words speak to my own marriage. I have been on needed medication ffor 1.5 years in which it would be unsafe for us to get pregnant at this time, I am trying so hard to get off this medicine, but it isn't happening yet. And my husband and I just plain don't like NFP these days. Abstinence for 3 or so weeks is definitely not unusual for us. When you are dealing with meds that might cause deformities in your unborn child you just can't be too careful :/. But we are hanging in there knowing that marriage is MUCH more than sex, but it is very challenging at times. And we have grown closer to each other in different ways during this time. I once heard a wise priest say that whether you are in the vocation of marriage or consecrated life, we are all called to take vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience. They just take a different form, depending on the vocation. And somehow, within these vows is the "school of love" as love has the inner form of a vow (thank you Von Balthasar!) That is, a complete emptying of oneself and gift of oneself. But obviously, it never looks quite like we expect it too. Which is why it stinks (or appears too!). So, here's to chastity and that beautiful "yes" I said to my husband. The "yes" to the unknown and the "yes" in good times, bad times, in sickness and in health. And the "yes" to poverty, chastity, and obedience in marriage! May the graces keep coming!Kathrynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13538597995197637353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4865004314650777465.post-45864436947623972592011-09-06T15:29:50.453-04:002011-09-06T15:29:50.453-04:00I don't know that I could be so eloquent but m...I don't know that I could be so eloquent but my heart aches and shares your difficulty. On the outside it looks like picture perfect, but God's plans are so much bigger than mine. To greatly desire my spouse but have to abstain or be rejected draws me closer to God. Usually with tears:) I find great solace in other women who struggle and still find joy in the lives we've been blessed with. Is it easy, no, is it doable yes. do I want it to be like this forever, not really, but Trusting God's plan helps me keep Him front and center.MKnoreply@blogger.com